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 POLL: G-Raids

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Should Gold Rais be part of WoW?
YES, definitely. GOLD is so much better than DKP!
22%
 22% [ 2 ]
Sure, DKP is good, but gold raids help me gear my alt
22%
 22% [ 2 ]
I like it. I dont have gold and it it nice to earn a few for doing a raid
11%
 11% [ 1 ]
I don't care. Whatever...
11%
 11% [ 1 ]
I don't like them too much, i have been cheated a few times
0%
 0% [ 0 ]
No, gold raids tent to gear people who should l2p first
11%
 11% [ 1 ]
NO WAY! Gold Raids BREAK the game!
22%
 22% [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 9
 

Naklin 
NefarianNefarian

Posts : 1032
Joined : 2006-12-03
Male Age : 38
Location : Shanghai

Character in WOW
Server: TW-Stormscale (雷鱗)
Name: Naklin
Guild: All Gear No Skill

  Fri 9 Feb 2007 - 5:58  #
Didn't know where to put this in, so judging by the description of this forum, it could fit in here.
As of lately (being the past 6-7 months), i have seen a heavy increase in Gold Raids. They mainly kept restricted to "smaller raid" instances like ZUG or AQ20, and maybe, just maybe some people did an occasional MC Gold run on this or that server.

Now, my Question is not a question per se. I am seeking opinions.
What do you think of Gold raids?
Do they help the game? Do they break the game?
Any pros or cons?
or just any thoughts anyone might want to add...

(don't be afraidto post long. the better you build an argumentation, the more interesting this will be.)

_________________

Come and join on Starcraft 2 as well =]
Krokro 
GolemGolem

Posts : 397
Joined : 2006-10-25
Male Location : Shanghai

Character in WOW
Server: 玛多兰
Name: Biceps
Guild:

  Fri 9 Feb 2007 - 6:41  #
when i was first told about gold raids, i first didnt really the idea of a pickup MC raid; but i quickly make up my mind and finally find this can be an interresting way of making money (still its better than dealing cards, isnt it). I have always been pennyless in-game, im then looking forward to taking part in Smile
Well, my character hasnt reached lvl 60 yet here, so I have never tried by myself but sounds good. However i can figure its hard to compare both. Most of the low level instances i have played till now are pickup ones, it can be fun but its also taking some risk (give up at anytime, ninja...), but my schedule often doesnt match others ones, zenme ban?
I think both are good, Gold raids definitively allow casual players or people in non capable raid guilds to get some purple items which arent possible to get by other means.

Its not better, its different; but Im definitively for gold raids.

Note than on our server, MC raids are run everyday, like ZUG raids, its not uncommon.

_________________
田畕畾畕田 - Mage Herborist/Miner/Grinder
deadanus 
RagnarosRagnaros

Posts : 948
Joined : 2006-11-30

Character in WOW
Server: TW
Name: noobcake
Guild:

  Fri 9 Feb 2007 - 7:18  #
G raids is the cancer that is slowly killing WOW in china.

I was checking a G TAQ yesterday and some items went for 4000G... This is 300RMB. The people paying have not farmed that amount of cash. They bought it to hackers that hijack account to make money (stealing all the bank and disenchanting the items)...

People participating in G raids are paying and contributing in the progress of such hackers.

The final amount spent yestrday by the rais of 40 people was close to 20.000 G at a rate of 70RMB for 1000G, we are talking about a business of 1400RMB in a session of 2 and a half hour. This is way higher than the average chinese salary.

The idea was good, but it went way out of proportion...

The G tuans will not help the casual players in any way except if the purchase gold...

as there was no option in the poll saying :
"- fuck G groups, they made me quit the game i used to loved"

I voted for the last one.

KTHX
Naklin 
NefarianNefarian

Posts : 1032
Joined : 2006-12-03
Male Age : 38
Location : Shanghai

Character in WOW
Server: TW-Stormscale (雷鱗)
Name: Naklin
Guild: All Gear No Skill

  Fri 9 Feb 2007 - 8:42  #
I sadly have to aggree with deadanus here.
while krokro has a point in saying "its better than dealing cards" for gold, actually most people DEAL cards before the G runs, in order to have the necessary amount of gold to actually outbid others on the items.
this leads to an unnecessary gold trade within the game that sadly is deprecating the gameplay experience. Prices bloat in the AH, nobody EVER farms anything anymore. Some completely uncabaple players are uber-geared, and a few other things.

i personally have made the experience of not being teamed "BY MY OWN GUILD" for that TAQ G-run (i wanted to see the twins for the first and maybe only time in my life. my raid is losing people and falling behind, and in TBC noone will ever set foot again in TAQ in china). They refused to team me, because i DID NOT have a minimum amount of 3000+ gold on me that another mage in greens and blues had, to sepnd on TAQ drops.
(am i $#@%@#%#@? yes, i am)

bottom line here is, that g runs, even if the concept would be ok, in my eyes, should work for maximum non-full-raid instances like AQ20 or ZUG, if at all. with people selling cards for money it all screws up. and they do it because they want that one drop of BWL, AQ40 or wherever which they would otherwise not see.

WoW is reward based. See factions, see end-game. i dont have that much time. i can't farm gold, so i am always short on money. but i try to find time to take part in the 2 raids a week. it's a dediaction one does. and thus you get the reward of seeing some instances and bosses and some amazing things, and you may as well have access to some gear with fascinating stats on it.

i just can't stand kiddies with inferiority complexes, using real-life money to bloat their e-peen, and somehow degrading other peoples game experience. There is a long chain reaction after that, due to the chinese mentality.

PS: Dealing cards is nothing else than buying golod from a website of illegal farmers. it ust sounds and feels nicer. you are buying gold with real life money.

_________________

Come and join on Starcraft 2 as well =]
deadanus 
RagnarosRagnaros

Posts : 948
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Server: TW
Name: noobcake
Guild:

  Fri 9 Feb 2007 - 9:14  #
buying G is teh lame
pouetpou 
Guest


  Fri 9 Feb 2007 - 17:17  #
Hi guys,

I love Gold raids because :
That is permit to all players to have an access to big instances (NAXX is also a gold
raid in MADUOLAN, Heal told me that last time ! All the big instances are gold
raid in Maduolan…

That permits to earn gold quickly and have fun. I used to be invited by the same
guys to do MC in gold raid (yes ZG, MC are noobs instances) and made a lot of money inside, that also help the new players to get T1 and T2 more faster, and help my rerolls in money etc …

The DKP system will not die… It’s just an internal guild system, so it’s different !
For example, our guild Cow Eater is little (about 70 people now) we can’t enjoy ZUG or MC by our self… So gold raid is a way for high level to have fun, earn money and get T1 and T2 quickly…

About the cheaters, I never see them in Maduolan… I always do Gold Raids, I never had any pb, sure when an item in BWL up at 5000G (it's really not often) I’m very happy, because I’ll get more money at the end lol… So If you do gold raids often, to buy an item at 5000G is not a problem, that’s just will make happy others gold raiders, and unhappy that one who wanna buy
that items, just tell him, ok boy play more gold raids to get more money ^^…
I don’t like DKP system… Or exchange the DKP points by gold it sound better !


So I’m definitely
for gold raids in all the forms..angel
deadanus 
RagnarosRagnaros

Posts : 948
Joined : 2006-11-30

Character in WOW
Server: TW
Name: noobcake
Guild:

  Fri 9 Feb 2007 - 22:11  #
that does not trouble you that this G finance the hacking teams that are roaming the servers and that will one day disenchant all ur gear ???

That sounds to me like giving the stick to be beaten with...
Krokro 
GolemGolem

Posts : 397
Joined : 2006-10-25
Male Location : Shanghai

Character in WOW
Server: 玛多兰
Name: Biceps
Guild:

  Sat 10 Feb 2007 - 6:53  #
well, this is an interresting debate; i think for my own that when you play wow, you should not think about that gold raids money is dirty money. Because if you begin to do so, then all your life is changed, you dont buy your food to Carrefour or WalMart because they exploits and ruins the small producers;
You dont buy petrol for your car since petrol companies are making secret wars ruining producing countries (well last one was not that secret), only to feed cars at high prices then transforming it into pollution (when you buy petrol for you car, you take part in exploiting the inhabitants of the producing countries by funding the petrol superpowers, as long as destroying our mother earth environment, congratulations thats a double hit).
You dont use Windows as OS either, even using without buying because you are proping up Microsoft monopoly, who has crushed every small american startup in the software industry for the last 25 years. But you've got to work, havent you. And you cant tell your boss "nah today im not going to turn my computer on if you dont tell me you have installed the latest Debian release".

So that isnt easy; these are a few examples, easy examples i admit, but no commercial leading companies has ever been built with 100% clean money. So if you buy goods or use services of these, you are taking part in their supremacy. When i was younger some of my friends fought for that, and even myself i was really in war (at least in my heart) against Microsoft expensive bullshits; now getting older, i accept some rules of this world, i just let it go.
Maybe some of the people playing wow are making real money with, and so? its just a game, and since China hasnt the same trade aggreement with the rest of the world, its a land for piracy, couterfeit makers and wow hackers. Nobody can change that.

When i see some people taking part of gold raids, well i see nothing bad but players who have decided to run MC or else and found that gold is the best way to rule this raid. Its easy, its fast, i think its efficient. If i want to play after an hard day of work, i dont think about all that. Its just a game, and if someone is to blame first, its Blizzard who cant control its creation as it should do.

_________________
田畕畾畕田 - Mage Herborist/Miner/Grinder
Naklin 
NefarianNefarian

Posts : 1032
Joined : 2006-12-03
Male Age : 38
Location : Shanghai

Character in WOW
Server: TW-Stormscale (雷鱗)
Name: Naklin
Guild: All Gear No Skill

  Sat 10 Feb 2007 - 14:23  #
I agree about blizzard having a lot of it's responsiblity.
I dont really defend gold raids, as i per se can't do that.
not all moeny in gold raids is hacked, duped or stolen. but hell, yes, a good 50% of it "at least" is bought. and this bought money is either farmed via companies, or ...... hacked, duped and stolen.

i dont know if it might be because many of other foreign players dont care about reading /general / yell /trade or guildchats (you ahve your own guild, so you wont read a chinese guildchat), but people are selling cards more than they are trading in game consumables or drops.

i just think it come from the point fo view of 2 camps here.
(i am not trying to flame, i will try my best. anything considered "touching" is not intended)
My point being: I don't consider myself an occasional player. i PLAY. and i have an investment in time, effort and sweat into it. (haha). but i enjoy it and its great fun. in the end, looking at it, i dont invest "that much" time anyways, as i could use more time, but i wanna do some other things.
Now, nonethelss, during that limited period of time i am playingWow, i am busting myself to get enough gold to raid, to get the consumables i need, to pay my repairs. and i get beaten up every week by new bosses who slay me down like i am some sort of cheap pudding. For what? because it's nice and i like to be able to pass a new instance. i like the feeling of working as a team, in order to find out how to get by a new part of the game (if possible be the first group) and earn our reward for this.
and here is where i come to my point. we earn a reward for this. we get some gear, which in the game is called epic, or even better in some cases. we get armor, weapons and its some sort (in wow the only sort) of reward for having invested not, the time, but the effort.
and thats where camp 2 comes in:
"hello i am an occasional gamer, i dont want /can not invest the effort, but i do wish to feel uber as well andrun around in all possible items like i would have popped kel'thuzad's cherry myself"
nothing against the fact that its human for anyone to want to have the same nice gear. nothing against the fact that people wish to feel great as well. nothing against any of it. (somehow). But there IS a difference in the effort invested by some people and others.

These others, in many cases, will eath up good raiding spots for other occasions, because they do have the gear, regardless of their skill. It is kind of ... not nice of what i say, but i simply dont "want" someone just getting to 60, buying cards for 500 rmd and reselling them or directly buying gold on a web, to come by, and within 3 weeks being geared the same way i am geared in 3 months of hard earning.
it might not be the case in CE guild to buy gold. but it HEAVILY is in china. this also elads to inflating prices in auction house like sick. things dont get affrodable for people who dont buy gold.
lets face it, if i do ALL possible ZG + AQ20 gold runs / week, i am still short of being able to afford much, because its what raiding will cost me in a week.

call me separatist, but the little effort i put in, to play when / how i play, can be done by anyone, to get the gear and so on.
CE guild could perfectly raid MC / BWL / AQ40 if they would recruit people and play.

DKP is something you earn over time, and with effort. Let me ask you this:

How about someone in your company gets your position all of a sudden (assuming you have a position to look at and are not the mailboy), simply by "paying" (in cash, or with their body or whatever way) to obtain your position, whilst you have been working for say, 8 years in the comapny?
That person not really knowing that post, nor the tasks, being respected by all around him/her for the position. And there would be no way in hell that this would ever come out.

Gold-raids kill anything for me. truly.
they give something to people not investing that little bit of effort. that they do. but in that case, it feels like when i played through doom with god / cheat mode on.

my 2 cents.
(anyone wished me to edit the post, i'll edit. just dont punish me again. just tell me. nothing mean intended, nor am i judging others with it, i simply dont know how to put it in words)

_________________

Come and join on Starcraft 2 as well =]
pouetpou 
Guest


  Sat 10 Feb 2007 - 14:48  #
Hi guys and mates,

I really don't think that when i play wow...
It's just a minority who do that, do gold raids frequently permit to increase gamefriend repertory, it became a kind of familly gold raiders and we finaly know each others. When i read you i can understnd you don't have experience of gold raid... So you think more. If you practiced goldraid often (but maybe you can't on your server because it's not really developed..) you'l know this kind of mind doesn't exsist inside.
Now on maduolan, in ironforge we have about 3 or 4 lvl 1 who are folooding the by /s with promotion messages for leveling characters for you and sell cards for money... We can't see others players talk, they are cheated to /s the same message everytime....
THAT IS KILLIND THE GAME, NOT GOLD RAID.
The gold raid is just an other form of loot system for out guild players.
Gold raid will never kill the game, it's cetain.
What is killing the game ? >> people who make business with...
Gold Raid isn't a business, it's a loot systeme, and a way to make money in GOLD!
I know in China and others countries too, wow is a business for many people, but, that's not the gold raid problem, gold raids were not invented for that...
So the real problem is not Gold Raids, it's an other form of problem, like my guildmate and future goldraider mate krokro told to you...
And really, the ambience in gold raid is really good, nothink to said about it.
So guys you should enloy it, and don't think more about it, if not you'd better control if your conputer, your shoes were made by childrens, instal linux and play a free mmorpg, not use cars, and more take care of the environement i think it's more important...angel
deadanus 
RagnarosRagnaros

Posts : 948
Joined : 2006-11-30

Character in WOW
Server: TW
Name: noobcake
Guild:

  Sat 10 Feb 2007 - 15:40  #
you are arguing a lot over false ideas...

G raids promote the G buying with real money.

Buying a game currency with real life currency is bad because it makes the game unbalanced.

In another hand, gold raiders archive the same result with 300RMB that the result some players archived with 1 or more year of playing...

DKP = you play good and you help your friends in the guild, you get a reward.

G tuan = your income is bigger than someone else's, you get the reward...

I personally play video games for fun and i find my fun in the competition, not in the profit.
pouetpou 
Guest


  Sat 10 Feb 2007 - 17:17  #
No, you are false ..I'm sorry to tell you that, but I think you don't have Gold Raids experience...
What promote the true money in game?

Certainly not Gold raids...
But people who sell cards, people who sell service to up your toon to lvl 60 in 1 month, etc...

If you said Gold Raid promote the true money in game, we could also said AH promote the true money in the game. Because a lot off new players who don't have money can't buy anythink in AH. They 'll think about selling cards maybe...

Really, you have a bad point of view of Gold raid, i think that's due to your
non inexperience in ...

The only thing who is promoting true money in mmorpg is because they use an in game currency, you can have rewards and some people use this
way to get money easy. But please, stop said Gold Raids promote the true money in game you are definitely false and you have a lot of mmorpg who people pay to have gold in, equipment etc, and they not necessary go to gold raid lol... I
repeat again:
GOLD RAID
IS A LOOT FORM FOR PEOPLE WHO WANT DO BIG INSTANCE OUT OF THEIR GUILD, not all server can permit it, just understand all the big instances in MADUOLAN are now noob instance, same as your naxx, our realm beat it since long long time ago, and now it's a gold raid, waiting for TBC...
Yes accept it, not all servers and realms can do gold raids, just a few of them can ( the elite).
That just show to other the level off the server, realms in china, if a server gold raid naxx
>>> he is the best, because all noobs can go there with the elite of
the realm without play 1 year. I think it is great, and I’m really happy for my
realm lol...

Your argumentation is just so so...

I think gold raid is a way to not sell card for people who wanna get money quickly!
I never bought gold for a game and i'll never do that !
And if I meet people who want I’ll tell him I can give you some and wait and do GRAIDS, it's very fun, and after 2 raids you’ll can buy a reward...

It's a new form in china, very popular and very fun, all people I know like it and think it's very fun to up prices etc, it's exciting and helpful for noobs.

I'm so sorry if I cannot change your point of view, but... You think
more, and you are not open mind too other loot mode, you just think your guild and your DKP system …
Now think not all players have a big guild, and some of them are not interested in. They are casual, and just wanna have fun sometimes because their life doesn't permit them to play WOW often, they want to earn gold fast and that help others to do big instance in same time, so they’ll go to GRAID.
Or for the more bad of them (same with AH or /y to sell your things) they will buy Gold with true money, that one are contributing to
kill the game using /y to sell, AH or GRAID to use their gold only…

I think I’m clear (I hope with my poor English) but I’ll not post again, that's
ok for me, I explained well why gold raid is good and why it is not
contributing to the biz in WOW.

SO it’s up to you to open your mind or not.

PS :When the time will come for our guild to talk about an internal loot mode, we’ll of course not choose gold raid. DKP will be not the best way too due to a lot of casual in our guild, so we'll find our better loot mode ^^ .
deadanus 
RagnarosRagnaros

Posts : 948
Joined : 2006-11-30

Character in WOW
Server: TW
Name: noobcake
Guild:

  Sun 11 Feb 2007 - 3:28  #
AH don't promote G selling... people don't need to buy things in AH except a few potion for raiding.

No one can "farm" 5000G a week to buy some T2. They do G buying.

"""our realm beat NAXX since long long time ago"""

You didn't... The most fun in the game is to do instances... You pay G to be trailed by skilled characters... this is stupid ... sorry...

It's like other people did all the game and now the unskilled other people pay them good money to be brought were they could never go by themselves...

The whole point in raiding is to share some fun with guildmates and all collaborate into the raid in order to archieve a certain goal. Now you tell me that you prefer having people from another guild bringing you to instances ... I suggest you start slowly with people from your guild. Try to make a few real ZUG or FX for the begining. You will see it is way more rewarding when you do the instance by yourself (i don't say it in a sarcastic way, i really think your game experience will be improved).
pouetpou 
Guest


  Sun 11 Feb 2007 - 14:42  #
!! GOLD RAID FOR EVER !!

1 parangon ZG is about 10G (departure)...
1 epic ZG part of set is about 50G (depature)
You can we about 80G when you do ZG (full instance)
Same in FX

1 part of T1 set is about 100G (departure)...
1 part of T2 set is about 150G (departure)...
You can win about 150G when you do MC...

In BWL you can win about 100G / boss....

Make your calcul boy ! No need sell cards ! Just do gold raids !
Ahah, sory deadanus.. I think we are not talking about the same GRAIDS lol An item at 5000G it's not at every raid, and tha boy who buy it 5000G is very crazy maybe he kept his money sonce log time, maybe he sold cards, who can said ?), that's just make happy others who are here to play for fun and make gold at the same time (who don't like join pleasure and utility ????)...

I think my game experience is really improved, thanks to i can play with diffeents grups, i can do differents classes, and adapt me to the situations ... If you only know how to play with your guiild your experience capacity is limited... Taht"s a point of view, same as WHO PROMOTE THE TRUE MONeY IN WOW ?
WHo ?

>> People who sell and buy cards .. only, but a loot systms couldn't be the cause... Is it clear ? Not need be cleaver to undertand that ...
And in AH new players wanna buy equipement ! Not only potions, they are leveling ! Oo!
Are we playing the ame game boy ?

You look so experienced.... why you can't admit a loot system isn't the true cauze of true money in game ?
The problem is more difficult than said :
Gold Raid promote true money in game ..
It's limited to said that and that's simplify the problem...
You have me for exemple, and all my friends in game :
We like gold raids, and we never sold cards for GOLD, is it clear for you now?
It's unberable to read so many falses things about gold raids...

GOLD RAID FOR EVER !
Naklin 
NefarianNefarian

Posts : 1032
Joined : 2006-12-03
Male Age : 38
Location : Shanghai

Character in WOW
Server: TW-Stormscale (雷鱗)
Name: Naklin
Guild: All Gear No Skill

  Mon 12 Feb 2007 - 3:18  #
I have to admit, that the sentence "gold raids promote gold trade" is false. truly.
but they "also" promote it. i think gold trade (buying gold for real life currency) is something that comes automatically somehow in almost ALL MMORPGs.... sadly. (see FFXI for GIL FARMERS)

On the other thand, what dead (and me partially) is saying, it's that its somehow killing, NOT ECONOMICALLY VIE GOLD TRADE, but the difference between occasional (lo-skill) gamer and higher skilled gamers, in terms of rewarding them with the same rewards (drops).
i will rush off to work, so excuse me if i can't go too deep into details because i ahve a meeting this morning.
Point being, call me names if you like Smile, but i don't see it fit, that Mr. Average, who barely knows how to play his call, is running around in T3 pieces. Absolutely not.
But like i said before, old people have viagra, others have an e-peen substitute.

Little comment to your calculation:
"In BWL you can win about 100G / boss...."

100g * 40 people = 4000g
4000g * 8 bosses = 32.000g

please post your screenshot of your "average" 32k gold BWL raid, please.... i beg you. because if THATS not traded gold, then god knows. even so:

"You can we about 80G when you do ZG (full instance)
Same in FX...
You can win about 150G when you do MC...
"

lets be nice, and you have perfect cooldowns for instances:

(3x ZG) + (3x FX) = (3x80)+(3x80) = 480g
480g + 150g (MC) = 630g / week earnings

i assume you are not the guys who actually crack the instance, but you get trailed, you have limited to no potion costs, and a few repairs. so you shouldn't spend too much.

now wait. i forgot to add 800 gold for BWL (am i the only one to think the difference is high? maybe check your numbers ^^)

thats 1430gold / week.... if BWL gives 36.000 gold, i am scared to ask how much your NAXX raid drops off, mate.

"all the big instances in MADUOLAN are now noob instance, same as your naxx, our realm beat it since long long time ago,"

uhm.... first, please dont classify instances by difficulty level (eg: you call certain instances noob instances), when you have been trailed through by a group of good players, not having to wipe on the bosses until you actually get past them with your normal raid group, than you very much. i dont see you in a position to actually evaluate the difficulty level of an instance, if being a PUS (Pick Up Spot).

second, NAXX has been first done entirely by a chinese guild 2006.9.25 at 00:48 hours, on server one, not your realm though, if i am not misinformed (i might have wrong info here, hard to keep track of ALL chinese guilds, so please correct me). This brings us to:

1) OCTOBER
2) NOVEMBER
3) DECEMBER
4) JANUARY

that would be 4 months for the best chinese guild, i give it a month less for your realm, as i have not seen your realm in the top10 fastest naxx cleans list of china.

thats 3 months (or 4 if you claim your sever has that 2nd uberest guild... dunno) since Kel'Thuzad's first down.
give it the guild will NOT open it up directly for everyone and farm it maybe least 1 more month (4 times), considering they farmed before bosses a bit, while wiping on the latter (patch 1.11 out in last week of july, so august -> novemeber would give them fairly good time to gear the raid).
I still dont think they opened naxx for farm until December on maduolan.
Nevertheless, the expression "long long time" doesnt apply to me when 1 guild probably passed it 3 months ago and others during that month to follow. you make it sound very surreal.
passing a boss once / first time != farming an instance.

on the other hand, i agree, gold raids allow you (and others) to see instance you would otherwise not see and get gear you would not earn otherwise.

ps: i really do want to see the 36k gold BWL raid..... hilarious. makes our one time sale for 5k / object look like peanuts. yours is 36k regular. how much does a naxx g-raid earn ya?

_________________

Come and join on Starcraft 2 as well =]
Naklin 
NefarianNefarian

Posts : 1032
Joined : 2006-12-03
Male Age : 38
Location : Shanghai

Character in WOW
Server: TW-Stormscale (雷鱗)
Name: Naklin
Guild: All Gear No Skill

  Mon 12 Feb 2007 - 3:23  #
quick note, before i leave:

at 1430g/ week, and rough cost of 1000-1300 gold per drop (based on 4k per boss, 3-4 drops / boss) in BWL, you should be able to get one single drop every 2 weeks in BWL, or some minor drops in ZG or AQ20 for less money, every week.

still something is wrong with the numbers. i'll fiddle over them today.
(nohting else to do at work)

see oyu all.
byebye

PS: finally one thread that resembles a discussion. i was missing this from this forum. Smile

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Troutman 
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  Mon 12 Feb 2007 - 4:18  #
Gold raids are a great idea, but unfortunately theres a bad side to them as well. Being the only "laowai" in a gold raid many times, I've also been cheated or had the raid leaders attempt to cheat me until I dragged their face through the mud using the LFG channel. The latest was 2 nights ago. I spent 4 hours in ZG with a G raid, only to watch everyone port out after getting their split of the gold. I asked the raid leader, who could speak excellent english, why I haven't been paid. It turns out that it was a typical "misunderstanding" excuse. It was 1am...I was tired...so thought "fuck it" and logged. 70g gone. Oh well, it's only game money.

Be careful with the Gold raids....
deadanus 
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  Mon 12 Feb 2007 - 4:54  #
OK... lets talk in a simple way :
When we all were kids, we used to play games like day of the tentacle or "les chevaliers de baphomet"...
- The normal way is to spend time and finish the game.
- The gold raid way is to go buy an issue of a gaming magazine and use the walkthrough to finish the game in 2 hours.

When it was for those games, i totally agreed about people thats didn't want to spend the long time finishing the game and that used the tools to see the game already finished. But hte problem is that WOW is a multiplayer game.

In MMO, people like to compare themselves with each other. In a noob realm like mine (thank you poupetou to put me back were i stand), having T2.5 and T3 puts you in a good standing. You work hard to open the way in the most difficult dungeons (that indead are noob dungeons, thank you again poupetou). This hard work can sometimes gives you rewards. You are happy with T3 gear and you can brag it out in ogri Smile

Now, what i don't like is that i see more and more tourist busses starting from ogrimar and a few skilled players dragging other people behind them and letting them buy souvenirs for a very high price...

I'm not too much with this "leetness" nonsense... but for this particular exemple, it make me very sad to see some poeple running arounf TAQ with 0 nat rez, OTing the crap out of gongzhu and a few minutes later buying a piece of regalia for some K golds...

What is the fun you can find in running behind people that actually do the dungeon... Don't you have a little bit of pride and wouldn;t you enjoy actually killing the bosses with your own guild.

You tell me that you guild is 70+ members. This is way enough to run ZUG / FX / MC. Please try it a least for a few months. You will enjoy it so much and see how G raids are lame.

I know i'm in a noob realm, but my guild has made a few first down on the server and this is also a very cool moment to live...

Now that's just my opinion, but this must be very sad to be on a realm where you can't PVP and can't raid for real....
sephirothmana 
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  Tue 13 Feb 2007 - 4:08  #
Snif that's so beautiful and full of truth !
At least someone who knows the Lucas Art serie games love
For sure I totally agree Wink this is a MMO and we have to complain with all the players! Gold rush would kill the wow universe!
(yeah I am of the guys who spent a long long time and finished day of the tentacle and sam&max by myself Razz )
pouetpou 
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  Tue 13 Feb 2007 - 4:54  #
Erm I just
wrote the topic, but the foum bugged so I have to re write all again on word
this time lol …So … go on I’ll make mor short, mayebe god thought it’s too long and unappropriate…

Hi there
again and Gold Raid for ever !

I must admit in BWL there is a mistake lol, that to you guys to remember me…

I went there for the boss before NEF, and I earned 100G,shit I don’t have screen, but this is at that time a paladin bought a shield for 5000G and this night I saw for my first time NEF and he wiped all its worriors blasted us, wiped us again and again, great full lol…no screen again beleve or not, tonight I ‘ll sleep same J…

And all my money was redistributed to all my rerolls and i gave to friends…

About who beat NAXX in first, it is not my first interest, and I never said I did, and I never said our server beat it in first as I know… I’m not interesting to search on a web site to know which server did it in first, I just report what realms mate said.

you should understand the situations of others players...

Gold raid,
can permit to new players from little guild to see the big instances etc, As
you know we are a little guild about 70 people now, with maybe pic of 10 people on line at the same time for the bests days… I’m in CowEaters since the first second of the creation, and it seems I wanted
to see what is Zug, what is MC, AQ20, AQ40 BWL etc. when I get my druid at lvl 60. So I decided to change guild at that time and go to a big one and start raiding.

I did well and learn a lot from Darck Moon Dancer (very good guild).

After I changed and went to NewLife (one of the greatest guild of our realm with in the full night people conected) with a very good history and challenge past. I did well there too, I got DKP pts I discovered the system etc…

Well, after what I was really boring, I missed my mates, and I decided to join back my natural born killer guild CowEaters (whith its best players of the world inside DDK SAM §! uhuhu).

I decided to level an other toon a rogue, Zouik. Really uped fast cauze I’m an addict nolife of this game since august 2006, I never played MMO before, only tactic games and adventure games. Waiting the guild is more big, to enjoy the challenge you are talking about DAnus (pretty name, normal for an und.) and Nanklin. I discovered Gold Raid, that’ s great I finally can join in Raid again and stay with my favourite Guil build of natural born killer
sbroudges…

So I do Graid again an again, and again borred to not do that with my mates, I decided to create again, this time a warlock, Doggie lvl 42 at that time. And I can help my guildmate to lvl up and have fun with them... We are playing little instances with them and I enjoy it X100000 than do MC or
BWL in gold raid.

I also have toons in PVP realm, I have a mage und, a warlock und and a shaman taurent and orc. All between lvl 10 to 25… I really not have fun to play there alone with all my mates in PVE, so I stay in PVE. Of course, I’ll prefer our guild is in a PVP system, but that is not the case and before I didn’t now the game when I join in, so, now it’s too late to change. I’m in this guild since the 1st second of its creation, and I definitely don’t want to change !

So after this brieve explanation of my WOW experience, I hope you could understand why Gold Raid could be important for many people!

If I create an other toon I’ll call it NOLIFE, that’s what I’m going to be since I know WOW … Perhaps for several months more, I’ll get boring soon if we have to wait 1 year before make a ZUG 20 pers or FX 20 people with our guild...


Last edited by on Tue 13 Feb 2007 - 5:03; edited 1 time in total
Krokro 
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  Tue 13 Feb 2007 - 4:55  #
deadanus wrote:
You tell me that you guild is 70+ members. This is way enough to run ZUG / FX / MC.

in fact we have 70 characters not 70 members, including people having up to 5 characters (i wont name them Rolling Eyes), including dead characters.

We have an average of 7-8 members logged on every evening, for a total of 15-20 active members maybe. Plus most of us are not lvl 60 and take pleasure in lvling instead of rushing end-game (i still believe our guild is a social guild and not a raid guild)



Im still thinking you cant compare G-Raids and DKP: one can be performed casually and still provide a life for lvl 60 characters, the other one may bring very good benefits but imply to connect on a regular base (otherwise the dkp are still low, no items)

In that way, Im not more for one or the other; DKP also has some dark points: if you have a job, a wife or a girlfriend, maybe children, you cant compete with unemployed people: there the possible competition ends; you want that sword? the T1 boots just dropped for the first time since 10 runs? yes I'd like to complete my set but this new hunter, he reached lvl 60 for less than 3 weeks and he already got more points than me. And he is gathering everything.

Each system has good and bad sides; personnally I despise the gold farms, but gold raids isnt a bad idea, and better suits my gamestyle (still, i havent tried for the moment).

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deadanus 
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  Tue 13 Feb 2007 - 5:04  #
"if you have a job, a wife or a girlfriend, maybe children, you cant compete with unemployed people"
I have a job, a wife, i'd like to have a xiao laopo but i'm not rich enough yet. I don't have a kid but i'm working on it ATM...

And guess what, i am competing pretty good inside a DKP raid.

I am not raiding every night, obviously, but 2 or 3 nights a week is enough for the current instance i like to run.

If you are not enough for ZUG in your guild, just start by some heishang... If you don't have a 10, just group a few out of the guild mates Smile
Naklin 
NefarianNefarian

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  Tue 13 Feb 2007 - 5:05  #
agree......

i think we are getting to the point in general:

1) making all raids gold raids would be silly, for losing a great system as DKP
2) anything that is not on farm for quite some time, should not be on gold raid
3) gold raids do allow casual or non end-game guilded players to see an instance at least
4) gold raids do not "promote" gold trading per se, but they added a lot to it, lets face it (sadly)
5) it is like everything in life, there has to me moderation for everything

on a side note, 70 chars is not 70 players, true. in that case, i can understand how it's harder to raid something like ZG / AQ20.

on another sidenote, i have about over 6GB of classic games now on my HDD. knowing how small they are, you can imagine the abundancy, as i was co-coder to a quite big abandonwarez webring. so if anyone is still looking for old lucasarts (da beeeeeeeeeest... and sam n max was insane !), sierra (got them all...love them all) or just any little unthinkable thing, drop me a pm.
i should also be able to supply description on how to make it run on win XP / 2000 / vista. this stuff's so small i can email it... lol

c ya around.

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pouetpou 
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  Tue 13 Feb 2007 - 5:17  #
Lol yes, right, if you wana make all the gold raids, you 'll be rich, but, maybe you'll sleep outside at least lol...

mmmm i'm thinking, why we couldn't make a pat with intrested things like game etc... in uplaods via torrents lol

dam the server is weekly closd now ... i must squat the forum... and cannot to nolife...
Krokro 
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  Tue 13 Feb 2007 - 5:29  #
I tried to create a UBRS raid on my last connection on friday: I admit thats much harder than creating a group for random 5p instance. I also attempted to joinded a ZUG raid on pickup, but it seems its still much too early for me, i got dismissed

About UBRS, it can be a good start for us, the challenge is now to manage to meet everyone's schedule.

however, I remember the time spent in UBRS on my former realm; at that time, UBRS raid was performed on a non stop basis; it was a 15p raid i wasnt that fond of, its really a trash instance (not because of items, but because its ugly *personal feeling* ). Still, runing as a guild event and not as a pickup raid is a very good idea, lets try to propose that to everybody.

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Naklin 
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  Tue 13 Feb 2007 - 5:40  #
even though i amde my closing statement almost, i have to thank krokro for actually supporting my point on DKP.

" the T1 boots just dropped for the first time since 10 runs? yes I'd like to complete my set but this new hunter, he reached lvl 60 for less than 3 weeks and he already got more points than me."

he only has more points if he comes more frequently. which in return means he did a greater effort for the raid as a group, plus the group might benefit more from him being geared, if he is there more frequently than others.
that is exactly my point.
for schedules: in my guild, we are about 80% of the people busy and working, we have to rotate some classes in instances because some of them have to disconnect at 10:30 evening time, etc etc.
but doing 1 or 2 instances a week (1 or 2 evenings) is not a loss of time. i have family, fiancee, life and lots of troubles, and i make it.
funny thing is how most people / wives / girlfriends, etc won't complain nor criticize you when you would sit down and watch 2 movies in a row 1 evening and say "oh, cmon, making a relaxed evening and watching few movies. it relaxes me, once a week". Most of the people wouldn't even say anything to you.
you you play one evening a game for longer than 2 hours (lets say 3-4.xx depending of the raids skill), everybody is up and calling you a maniac and trying to explain your addiction to you...haha

think about it

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Krokro 
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  Tue 13 Feb 2007 - 6:01  #
Naklin wrote:
he only has more points if he comes more frequently. which in return means he did a greater effort for the raid as a group, plus the group might benefit more from him being geared, if he is there more frequently than others.
sure I know about DKP system, thats fair, but if in your guild 80% of people are unemployed and nolife hardcore raiders, you feel DKP prevents you from upping at same speed as the other ones (anyway, its same with every system)


Ok Ive just proudly made the first annoucement for guild raid on UBRS, lets see if people are interrested in Now we meet the crucial problem of finding a key

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Naklin 
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  Tue 13 Feb 2007 - 6:20  #
5 man LBRS 1-2 teims and you have the key if everyone grants the one person having the quest getting the loot.
so itll help (plus, if you are not geared so well yet, use the key (ring) on the first obss fight with rend, and vael will come and help ya)

otherwise shoutout in org.... oups IF for sumone to come open the door for a few gold or just goodwill... if you have a lock that can pull them they will all galdly come.
I know i usually do.

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Krokro 
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  Tue 13 Feb 2007 - 7:28  #
yeah thats one of the things I really hate Blizzard for: the key of UBRS: only one guy can expect having the key, its a 3 drops quest (till there Im ok), but the drops are rare drops (GRRR...). I remember having spent days trying to loot the ogre boss jewel... never came... (oki thats a game, and im no longer having fun trying to get that key: pass)

Nah frankly speaking, if nobody has it in the guild, we search among all our relations and try to get someone (it could be free, but 10G can make it worth it, 1G for each of us)

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pouetpou 
Guest


  Tue 13 Feb 2007 - 9:15  #
NO problem i'm agree to go there too 100%coweaters...
It seems hard to find 10LVL 60 conected at the same time to go there...
Or for 5 people the Maul is not bad too ^^ and i know Globuline have to go there for the epic mount..so let's do that, we have more chance to find 5LVL 55-60 now, than 10 lvl 60...
My dream is to farm FX and ZG with our guild... But it seems to be a dream... I think we should kick officer ass to do well their job and invite more people, to be officer now in our guild is nothink more than a big wind ( manage who ? ok go to the dead mine... aaaa), just need invite more and more people that's all ! Borring...:x

No way from now...Gold Raid for ever .? Sur i hope no, but no way !
Luna 
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  Thu 22 Mar 2007 - 21:44  #
Krokro wrote:

I think both are good, Gold raids definitively allow casual players or people in non capable raid guilds to get some purple items which arent possible to get by other means.

Its not better, its different; but Im definitively for gold raids.

Note than on our server, MC raids are run everyday, like ZUG raids, its not uncommon.

My thoughts exactly, you guys don't know the tiredness of being a raid leader..... team people, organize dkp, check everyone's dkp, check item dkp value, and that is not all; sometimes and often times player A didnt like the idea of B having priority on certain item, discussions and arguments breaks off on the raid etc. Those things ARE tiring and even more for dungeons that the raid is supposed to have mastered. These kind of raids G-raid eliminate 1/2 of the problems that goes for raid members.
Naklin 
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  Fri 23 Mar 2007 - 2:47  #
luna, stop posting at 2am, 4 am and 5 am, and go to sleep.
dont backstab us ex-guildies in the back by counter arguing... lol

backstabbing dagger rogues...bah.

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Luna 
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  Fri 23 Mar 2007 - 2:51  #
haha; i slept this whole afternoon after a tiring day

heheheh you guys realize that for casuals getting inside MC,BWL is a hard thing? especially if you can only play on weekends, or have a rogue....,not meeting the agenda of your guild; hence you will never be able to get into raids. Trust me if i didnt join or had enough contacts before, I would have never raided, and hence seeing anything like MC, Zg,BWL, TAQ, etc. would have never been possible.

sorry I am not really counter arguing, am just seeing things on another perspective thus creating more discussions (not arguing...) apologies if I expressed in some other way lol
deadanus 
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  Fri 23 Mar 2007 - 5:17  #
i got iblis, nothing else matters now.
Naklin 
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  Fri 23 Mar 2007 - 5:34  #
naklin feels like dead.
naklin is "parked" now, coming out only for raids, ONLY when they call him, ask him to. 4 weeks to go, he can rest.

time to do a blitzkrieg like catchup for luna, and for bedo to hit 60.

luna is gonna be a fine lady when tbc hits us in 4 weeks. lulu might consider using her and do some asia / china first kills of certain bosses....

Illidan anyone? i know dead will sign up WinkRazz

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deadanus 
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  Fri 23 Mar 2007 - 5:46  #
realm illidan first kill, N#1 on DPS metter with 2% more than second one... This is my short term goal on TBC Smile
Naklin 
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  Fri 23 Mar 2007 - 5:53  #
"short term" goal........ MWAHAHAHA

you give me the yuyus..... love ya

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deadanus 
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  Fri 23 Mar 2007 - 6:02  #
any middle to long term goal has to be "dominating the world"
deadanus 
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  Fri 23 Mar 2007 - 6:03  #
bam Smile im a monk too
Naklin 
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  Fri 23 Mar 2007 - 6:08  #
DING... levelling is DING ... ^^
GXGX, my friend.

World domination..... that makes me directly think of....

"the pinky and the brain brain brain brain.......dadadidaaadaaaaaa dadammm"
lovely series

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deadanus 
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  Fri 23 Mar 2007 - 8:26  #
uber hydra ... u pwn
ownage 
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  Fri 23 Mar 2007 - 22:27  #
I agree with what luna said, not everyone enjoys raid but they do have to do it-to do whatever they wanna do efficiently because of raid gears.

E.g. I'm a PVP freak I only raid because of gears to pvp. but if they only have DKP system, I'll be forced to raid like a DKPer.

With the GKP system, I can be in ORG shopping in the auction house and someone will shout: "MC GKP lai de MM" and I could go "ME ME ME". I have absolutely no obligation or strings attach for that single raid. and in return I get gold to spent on whatever I want.

Cash works in real life, It will work for WoW as well.
Krokro 
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  Sat 24 Mar 2007 - 4:57  #
What a Face "MC G团来的MM"

alien01 "Me Me Me"

What a Face "? ? ?"

alien01 "hey count me in"

What a Face "请用中文"


haha just kidding


Yeah the system is that we have to deal gold raid, sure we can waste time whining about that but since it exists y dont use them to our benefit;
i didnt put a penny in it but it earned me from 30 to 120G recently

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ownage 
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  Sat 24 Mar 2007 - 6:48  #
Exactly!!! we could whine about it here and it wouldn't make one bit of difference. It's a matter of supply and demand, there's a demand in the market for a GKP system, so it's inevitable that someone would supply it.

Everything got pros and cons, why can't you nay sayers see the pros of GKP? it's beautiful! and got more pros than DKP and less cons than DKP.

GKP PROS:
1)dual purpose: raid for money or raid for equipment
2)No obligations
3)can be in any guild or even guildless
4)More dynamic, like 5man dungeons, new raid member everytime.

GKP CONS:
1)You better keep track at the bidding or you could be cheat.
2)some groups require you to have cash before they let you in.

DKP PROS:
1)no cash involved.
2)raid more often(for people that enjoy raids)
3)raid with the same people maybe more efficient overtime.

DKP CONS:
1)for guild members ONLY
2)you have to follow the schedule of the raid, like a job.
3)you still have to keep track of your dkp and cheating does happens.
4)every guild have different variation of DKP systems, to the ones that don't know chinese it maybe difficult.

Anyway, theoritically whatever the price of an equipment cost- you will be able to get it with exactly 40raids assuming that the cost doesn't change.
e.g.
super dagger cost 5000G
Raid members 40
pay per member 5000/40=120G

simplifying the situation by assuming only super dagger drops everytime for each raid. you'll be making 120G each raid, and by the 40th raid you'll have exactly 5000G.

The beauty with GKP is: if you hate raid(or just don't enjoy it) you can do whatever you want to obtain the GOLD then get the item in just ONE raid.

Cuz not everyone wanna be obligated to a raid team.
deadanus 
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  Sat 24 Mar 2007 - 10:05  #
raiding is only good when you discover a new dungeon... raiding again and again the same instance to drag people that buy G with real money is dumb...

I think real PVPers should just twink a bunch of 29 or 49 to enjoy real BGs and real fights...
Naklin 
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  Sat 24 Mar 2007 - 11:12  #
you are right.
i put it this way though. if i already HAVE the gold, then i mgiht get a drop fast.
if NOT, i will have to raid counltess ZG / FX / MC / etc gold raids, in order to get one uber drops (or several smaller ones).
i do get objects with less raiding time with dkp system.
hard to believe for you, maybe, but true.
maybe its due to the ffact that we have a kickass guild (no cheating of dkp), where i might get drops even though i dont have the dkp.
by using zero - sum dkp system, it is important that somebody takes the drop, and not disenchant. if nobody takes the drop, the raid gets 0 dkp.
therefore, if nobody wants it, or everybody else has that object, i will still get it, even if it pumps my dkp into the minus.
Luna first bwl: 2 drops. nice.
on the other hand, to be very fair, they DO provide money, yes. i have nothing against a MC gold raid (it shrugs me a little though), but i still "prefer" end- game instances to stay for endgame raids.

i would also like to say, that usually i should be able to get one drop per raid or 1 drops per 1.5 raids, with our guild and dkp system. without diggin into -dkp. thats fine by me.

ownage has some good points, luna has prolly the best arguments for pro gkp. we do raid faster though in a regular group. way faster. hehe.

oh, and just on a sidenote. yes, you can do whatever you want to get the gold and then get the drop with one raid. question. how much time will you "dedicate" of your playtime total to get those 5k gold?
just a thought. cuz its a long way, mate.

another sidenote for ownage: dont try to get T1-2-3 pieces for pvp oriented play. you'll suck bad compared to BG gear or to non set pieces which are more burst / stam oriented.
if you have a char 40-50ish or 50-60 ish, pm me or msn me to find the time and go to AB AV WSG together. i do have chars int hat range and i am very often with peeps from your server... i wanna pvp with ya... ^^

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Come and join on Starcraft 2 as well =]
ownage 
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  Sat 24 Mar 2007 - 19:18  #
sure mate, Just today I saw a guy from "blood region" in the BG lol good old times. but I'm in BING FENG GANG now and deleted my char from aodelanke because of stolent account months ago....so....maybe when realm transfer becomes possible. Wink
Naklin 
NefarianNefarian

Posts : 1032
Joined : 2006-12-03
Male Age : 38
Location : Shanghai

Character in WOW
Server: TW-Stormscale (雷鱗)
Name: Naklin
Guild: All Gear No Skill

  Mon 26 Mar 2007 - 7:33  #
DUDE!!!!
if you have MSN or if you have QQ or even voice chat,
you go to your BG room, you join queue for AB, same time than me (or AV)..... whoever gets a sopt first, tell the other one which AB / AV it is, and then that person changes to join that specific one. BAM in same BG.

EZ....

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ownage 
Guest


  Tue 27 Mar 2007 - 5:18  #
sure, when I get to 60 first, I'm still lvl23 lol
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