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 Basics of a WOW 5 man Instance

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Muhan 
WyrmWyrm

Posts : 607
Joined : 2008-05-19
Male
Character in WOW
Server: CN1, PVE, Alliance, Maduolan (玛多兰), Silvermoon (银月)
Name: Loklok, Lokatme, Huntar, Magicjack, Urdead, Warry, Lokabubble, Bloodymerry / Bewitched
Guild: Swiss Bunnies

  Thu 4 Nov 2010 - 11:14  #
I thought, I'll put up some general information about the different roles in a 5 man dungeon, so that anyone, who didn't know, can read and learn to become masters of their job in a 5 man instance:

The information is taken from the following website and can be read in whole here:
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2713373/basics_of_a_world_of_warcraft_5_man.html

Understanding the jobs and the dangers of failing at those jobs is key to dungeon mastery.

Tank:
The tank's job is to create threat, enticing the mobs and bosses to focus their attacks on the tank. In short, the tank's job is to get hit with all non-AOE damage.
It is the tank's job to hold the attention or "aggro" so that no one other than the tank gets hit.
A good tank can usually get the aggro back from a DPS player who hits first...

DPS:
DPS is charged with killing the things that are trying to kill the tank without using abilities that might cause the target to take its focus off of the tank and shift to the DPS player.

Healer:
The healer's job is to keep the tank and other group members healthy. If the tank and DPS are doing their jobs, this typical means minimal heals for the DPS group and massive heals for the tank. The healer should stay away from the mobs, and keep an eye on all players' health bars.


In general, and there are exceptions of course, if the tank dies it's the healers fault, if the healer dies it's the tanks fault.

In general, if a DPS should get aggro from a mob, he/she should stop dealing damage, so that the tank can get aggro back.

A tank who would say something like "Non-elite mobs = DPS" is simply having the wrong attitude and he/she should consider if he/she is doing his/her job correctly. In 99% of all instances all the mobs need to be aggroed by the Tank and not by DPS.

It can happen, that a group wipes, due to different reasons.
No one's perfect and mistakes happen, but the group needs to learn from it's mistakes.
That's why it's important, that the group should analyse what happend in a neutral way and try to avoid the mistakes that caused the wipe in the next attempt.
If someone did a mistake, he/she shouldn't try to find excuses, but should say sorry, I know I did this or that wrong.

Hoping these informations help all who didn't know.
Urubaen 
AdminAdmin

Posts : 1480
Joined : 2009-02-26
Male Location : London

Character in WOW
Server: 奥特兰克 - CN1(PVP)
Name: Sandre
Guild: TCW

  Thu 4 Nov 2010 - 14:57  #
Additionally, DPS who thinks that they are uber, or tanks that like to pull a whole room of adds, despite the fact that they are not ready for it, are the kinds of jerks you'll most likely meet in the Random Dungeon Finder context.


As a healer myself, in order to maximise your heal ability, I suggest you use Grid, along with Clique. Can both be downloaded from WoWace. It takes far less space than healbot (bleh.), and is far more effective at helping you.
Gruumsh44 
WyrmWyrm

Posts : 566
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Male Age : 33

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Server: region 4 澳得兰克
Name: Gruumsh
Guild: Crazy WaiGuoRens

  Thu 4 Nov 2010 - 19:50  #
There is another way to look at Dungeons from a tanks point of view. (part time tank right now.) It is always the DPS's fault... now stay with me here!

DPS dies, their fault... not saying i wont do everything i can to take aggro back. But they gotta drop it some how!

Tank Dies, sure it is part the healers fault, but i am sure the healer ran out of mana healing the DPS because they aggro'd!

Healer dies, probably for a similar reason to the tanking one. Generouse healer heals the DPS so much that he aggro's and tanks cool downs are up from trying to get aggro back from the DPS...

ok Kidding aside.. The group has to be patient and understanding. Agree with the neutral sentiment.
This GS BS and needing to overgear everything rubs me the wrong way. According to guides i am ready for Naax, but players wont take me because i am not 4000GS MINIMUM! (i am 4000 in my PVP gear easy.)
./RANT

Enjoy
G
Muhan 
WyrmWyrm

Posts : 607
Joined : 2008-05-19
Male
Character in WOW
Server: CN1, PVE, Alliance, Maduolan (玛多兰), Silvermoon (银月)
Name: Loklok, Lokatme, Huntar, Magicjack, Urdead, Warry, Lokabubble, Bloodymerry / Bewitched
Guild: Swiss Bunnies

  Fri 5 Nov 2010 - 5:59  #
Gruumsh44 wrote:
There is another way to look at Dungeons from a tanks point of view. (part time tank right now.) It is always the DPS's fault... now stay with me here!
DPS dies, their fault... not saying i wont do everything i can to take aggro back. But they gotta drop it some how!

That's why I mentioned, that if DPS gets aggro they should stop doing damage, so that the tank can get aggro back. If they continue to do damage and die it is their own fault.

Well, Gear Score is the most missunderstood addon there is and too many players only focus on GS these days.
Sure it's a great tool to get a quick overview of the players gear, but there is much more to consider if a player is able to join a certain raid.
In many cases a higher GS means a better item, but not allways. For each and every class there are specific stats needed.
For most specs, except for healing, you want to focus on hit first. So, what is the point to get an item with a better GS, when you for example loose hit and are under the hitcap? It might be better to keep the old gear and have your hit cap, than to take the gear item with the higher GS.
A good player will choose his gear based on the stats he/she needs and not on the Gear Score.
Unfortunately most of the Gear Score fans only have knowledge about their own character (some dont even know their own toons Razz ) and have no idea what stats are important for a warrior tanking, a paladin tanking, a priest who does DPS or a priest who heals. He/she only sees that overal GS of the player and judges.
So for pugs the basic criteria to join will be Gear Score, and since not all know how to play their classes a high GS is required so that the raid can be succesfull.

So put on your PVP gear or take that tanking peace for your DPS toon, so that you can reach that Gear Score.

Or just leave it, like I do. My Gear Score is at 3900 and I can't go in no 10/25man cause I am not good enough.
Oh, what is funny though, is when the DPS guys with 4500 do less DPS than I do in 5mans on the final boss Wink
Muhan 
WyrmWyrm

Posts : 607
Joined : 2008-05-19
Male
Character in WOW
Server: CN1, PVE, Alliance, Maduolan (玛多兰), Silvermoon (银月)
Name: Loklok, Lokatme, Huntar, Magicjack, Urdead, Warry, Lokabubble, Bloodymerry / Bewitched
Guild: Swiss Bunnies

  Fri 5 Nov 2010 - 8:35  #
First I'm not trying to show off, or trying to say I'm the best, because I'm not. There are many others that are much better than me in playing a certain character.

I think there might be a misunderstanding of my post, because I have a DPS character as signature.

Yes, I like to DPS, but I'm not trying to defend DPS, I'm just trying to give the basic idea about 5 man instances, not about 10/25 man raids.
I wouldn't dare to give information about things I haven't enough experience about.

I have done all WOTLK 5 man instances in heroic mode as tank, as healer, as ranged and melee DPS.

Talents were reset with 4.01, but you should be able to see the spec, when you look at the gear.

My healer:
http://tw.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Wintergrasp&cn=Engel

My tank:
http://tw.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Wintergrasp&cn=Twbank


And to complete the whole thing about Gear Score, have a look for yourself, to bad the rogue couldn't join the 10 man raid cause he didn't meet the 5400 Gear Score requirement, but the mage probably would have.

5 man heroic mode, Violet Hold, DPS results 2nd Boss only:

Combat Rogue, GS 4891: DPS 7201
Arcane Mage, GS 5484: DPS 6157



Urubaen 
AdminAdmin

Posts : 1480
Joined : 2009-02-26
Male Location : London

Character in WOW
Server: 奥特兰克 - CN1(PVP)
Name: Sandre
Guild: TCW

  Fri 5 Nov 2010 - 15:15  #
Code:
Meh.
 Skill>GS.
GS=Epeen sastifier

I'd rather people ask for an achievement or something.. or even a fight strat...
Gruumsh44 
WyrmWyrm

Posts : 566
Joined : 2007-06-27
Male Age : 33

Character in WOW
Server: region 4 澳得兰克
Name: Gruumsh
Guild: Crazy WaiGuoRens

  Fri 5 Nov 2010 - 20:20  #
Haha, humbled Mage.

I am a biased individual,, i run Tank more often than not now. And i assume it is the DPSes fault since my healer is my wife usually... >.> <.<... When i DPs it is in PvP gear and PvP Arms Warrior spec, so i am almost sure not to pull aggro from a competent Tank.

Player makes the difference 9 times out of 10, if they know their class they know how to deal. The 1 time comes from that @#$% who couldnt give a crap about threat levels and is watching pretty numbers, I tell my Wife sitting next to me to let him die,, Rez costs less than a string of heals on the boss fight.
Muhan 
WyrmWyrm

Posts : 607
Joined : 2008-05-19
Male
Character in WOW
Server: CN1, PVE, Alliance, Maduolan (玛多兰), Silvermoon (银月)
Name: Loklok, Lokatme, Huntar, Magicjack, Urdead, Warry, Lokabubble, Bloodymerry / Bewitched
Guild: Swiss Bunnies

  Sat 6 Nov 2010 - 4:55  #
Sure if DPS doesn't watch their aggro and they don't stop hitting the mob, I let them die as a healer, unless the mob dies within one or two hits.
With the new dungeons in WOTLK, group damage is higher than before with TBC. DPS will die, not because they get aggro from a mob, but because of random damage to the group from trash mobs or bosses.
With the 3 new ICC 5 mans, coming with patch 3.3 (hopefully very soon), when ppl are trying to get their T9 set, you will see a lot of wipes.
For example in "The Forge of Souls" there are these nasty trash mobs right before the last boss. In heroic mode they will hit eacht group member with 7000 damage from time to time. If the mob doesn't die fast enough and the healer doesn't heal the group, DPS dies, without that DPS was doing anything wrong.
This is important for healers, because they will have to focus more on the group than in TBC.
It's not only bosses that will deal group damage, but also trash mobs, so keep that in mind Wink And I'm not talking about that poison on the ground, that you just can walk out, I'm talking about damage you are not able to avoid, no matter what you do.
Urubaen 
AdminAdmin

Posts : 1480
Joined : 2009-02-26
Male Location : London

Character in WOW
Server: 奥特兰克 - CN1(PVP)
Name: Sandre
Guild: TCW

  Sun 7 Nov 2010 - 12:08  #
I DECLARE THIS THREAD OFFICIALLY MUHA..oh wait. I agree with Gruumsh on the whole player thing. Sometimes, you'll meet jerks that like to aggro everything before the tank, and sometimes you'll meet HONESTLY GOOD AWESOME UBER players that are looking for nothing more than fun.

WoW is so much about frost badges (?) these days that the game has lost of its appeal. People don't run dungeons fully anymore; they'd rather skip some bosses, to get their badges faster. Which is why the old system was better: instances and raids for badge of justice gear, along with T6 tokens.
Muhan 
WyrmWyrm

Posts : 607
Joined : 2008-05-19
Male
Character in WOW
Server: CN1, PVE, Alliance, Maduolan (玛多兰), Silvermoon (银月)
Name: Loklok, Lokatme, Huntar, Magicjack, Urdead, Warry, Lokabubble, Bloodymerry / Bewitched
Guild: Swiss Bunnies

  Mon 8 Nov 2010 - 10:54  #
Urubaen wrote:
WoW is so much about frost badges (?) these days that the game has lost of its appeal. People don't run dungeons fully anymore; they'd rather skip some bosses, to get their badges faster. Which is why the old system was better: instances and raids for badge of justice gear, along with T6 tokens.

You are right, with 3.3 people will rush through dungeons and skip bosses. But I disagree about the old system being better.
With the old system, how did you join those groups for dungeons and raids?

you are in a big guild, that was able to do it. So with the new system you can run those dungeons with your guild, no rush no boss skipping, so old or new system it is the same.

you are in a small guild and need to join pugs. So you needed good luck for the loot, which means you could spend more time to get your gear. With the new system, you need good luck for the loot aswell and have to rush and skip bosses. For the old and new system you have to join pugs, which in most cases are just pure luck. I don't see much difference.

you are playing alone and can't read and write chinese. With the old system you weren't able to do anything, maybe if you were lucky you could join a 5 man, forget about the raids. With the new system you are able to get the gear needed for raids. If you are lucky you can join a 10/25 man.

IMO there are two groups, one in a big guild and one in small guilds/playing alone.
For the ppl in big guilds there is no change, cause you run with your guildmates.
For the others the new system gives them the chance to get good enough gear to be able to join a 10/25 man.
So for foreigners playing Chinese World of Warcraft, that don't read and write good enough Chinese, the new system will be better.
Just my opinion.
Urubaen 
AdminAdmin

Posts : 1480
Joined : 2009-02-26
Male Location : London

Character in WOW
Server: 奥特兰克 - CN1(PVP)
Name: Sandre
Guild: TCW

  Mon 8 Nov 2010 - 14:24  #
I actually kind of agree with you Muhan, but the thing is that in the new system, gear is just too easy to get, hence the new D/E button. In the old system, you could say that having full t6 was an achievement in itself. In the new one, you just need frost badges and without effort, you can get the same gear as any other player.

New System=more casual, more open to "normal" players, no need to raid to get good gear. BUT. Where did the sense of actual achievement go?

Old System=more "hardcore" yet, way more rewarding. Actually getting into a SW raid was an achievement. Defeating Ilidan was something awesome. Gear was actually epic.

This is without considering the language barrier, however.
Muhan 
WyrmWyrm

Posts : 607
Joined : 2008-05-19
Male
Character in WOW
Server: CN1, PVE, Alliance, Maduolan (玛多兰), Silvermoon (银月)
Name: Loklok, Lokatme, Huntar, Magicjack, Urdead, Warry, Lokabubble, Bloodymerry / Bewitched
Guild: Swiss Bunnies

  Mon 8 Nov 2010 - 14:55  #
That is the trend with WoW, Blizzard is making the game more casual, and anyone can have good gear without doing anything special.
End content on Chinese Servers will still be hard though with 3.3.
ICC raids aren't easy, so ppl with good gear and no skill will mostlikely never get the top gear, because you will need skill to down all bosses.
Of course you can get most of the gear with Frost embleems, but first not all, due to the fact that the NPCs that sell the gear for frost embleems doesn't have all gear to fill your slots and second you only get 2 frost embleems a day from the daily random dungeon quest.
So, if the average person with no skill doesn't join raids, due to the fact that they get kicked because they suck, it will take probably a year to get the best gear available from the NPC (but remember, that will not be for all the slots), and by that time new content will come and their good gear will become average.
Yes, it is easier, but the players with skill will allways get the best gear, which casuals and players with no skill will not get.
So, if you are good, then you will still be able to show off Wink
Urubaen 
AdminAdmin

Posts : 1480
Joined : 2009-02-26
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Character in WOW
Server: 奥特兰克 - CN1(PVP)
Name: Sandre
Guild: TCW

  Mon 8 Nov 2010 - 15:14  #
[looks at sig 2nd line] worship worship
Sup 
FelhoundFelhound

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Name: Trollkicker
Guild: Requited Pride

  Mon 10 Jan 2011 - 7:17  #
Highest DPSers get killed first

Don't stand in the fire

Jerks are the reason why DPS queues are 40 minutes+

Don't stand in the fire

Healers not knowing how to manage mana are blaming it on Blizzard and are an additional reason why DPS queues are 40 minutes+

Don't stand in the fire

GearScore is the ass of all player measurements

DON'T STAND IN THE FIRE

/thread
StiXx 
NecromancerNecromancer

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Location : Guangzhou / Eindhoven

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Name: Avanti
Guild: The Crazy Waiguorens

  Mon 10 Jan 2011 - 10:07  #
Players with no skill can still get the best gear, was in a 10VOA 1 week ago and my GS was the lowest at 45xx. healers and tanks both 5500 GS but still we werent able to down 1 boss (THEY KEPT STANDING IN THE FIRE Sad )...


I guess if you have enough gold and just go to 25man raids you will loot whatever you want with your skill beeing 0.

Thank god there is Arena as (high rating) this gear is the only one you will need good skill to obtain and cant fake out on, so if you want to show off better go arena Smile
Urubaen 
AdminAdmin

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Character in WOW
Server: 奥特兰克 - CN1(PVP)
Name: Sandre
Guild: TCW

  Mon 10 Jan 2011 - 15:12  #
Gearscore, literally a grade for each player's level nowadays. I had exactly the same experience as Avanti in an Ony 25, with a 5.5k Moonkin, which managed to only get 10th on dps list (1st was a normal/heroic trial of the champion geared).
The whole mana issue thing? WTF. Wotlk is so much about mana that's it's actually hard to run out. unless some Tank D-bag pulls the whole room before boss, then goes on to charge boss immediately, therefore not allowing the healer to actually DRINK.

Avanti, there is still a way to fake arena GS=skill. It's the people that buy the arena 'leveling' services. (give them 10k gold and get to 2200 rating basically).

Least I heard in Cataclysm that Gearscore got replaced by gear average iLvl. Is that a better thing?
StiXx 
NecromancerNecromancer

Posts : 702
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Male Age : 30
Location : Guangzhou / Eindhoven

Character in WOW
Server: 奥特兰克-CN1(PVP)
Name: Avanti
Guild: The Crazy Waiguorens

  Tue 11 Jan 2011 - 5:36  #
So better show off with the gear from rating 2000 then, As those who do this service always have the highest :p
ReiChina 
HarpyHarpy

Posts : 108
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Server: CN1
Name: BloodRaine/ (hub)Soloman
Guild: Crazy Weiguorens

  Mon 28 Feb 2011 - 18:26  #
I really disagree with the GS being connected to skill...but I may be a little biased. Our GUILD has 4 players left so we don't see many raids these days unless some of our friends from a bigger guild invite us. But when we do get invited (even with a low GS of about 4870) I could still heal though a raid and my hubby MT it.

On another note, a new problem I've started seeing in 5 man dungeons is the melee heavy DPS. Now I'm no rocket scientist but if ALL your dps is melee, plus the tank so having one healer just can't cut it in all dungeons. So as a healer you have to have a ranking system. Who can you really lose if it came down to that. Generally it's the person that is pulling agro from the tank, but if you can get the boss down without that extra bit of dps then it's the one with the lowest dps that you'll have to let go of. OR it's the one that can't seem to follow directions. (Yeah as a healer I'll even put in my 2 cents about the boss and how we'll fight it so that I can be in the best/ safest position and still be able to heal) And this is on top of the fact that MANY new players are totally relying on the healer to watch out for them instead of them watching out for themselves. -DON'T STAND IN THE FIRE!!! Evil or Very Mad
Urubaen 
AdminAdmin

Posts : 1480
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Character in WOW
Server: 奥特兰克 - CN1(PVP)
Name: Sandre
Guild: TCW

  Tue 1 Mar 2011 - 12:57  #
While leveling my protection paladin with LFD, I had these kind of melee dps. Therefore my new policy on 5 mans PuG is :


Code:
You pull it, you tank it
chinwow 
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  Fri 25 Mar 2011 - 10:00  #
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