Hello all,

because it seems recently some people disagree with moderation decisions, although these decisions were made according to the rules of this chart (especially rule #1), so what do you think about this chart?

let sum up this chart, there are 4 rules:

• rule #1 do not mess with other users
  
• rule #2 do not post irrelevant content
  
• rule #3 try to use English as far as possible
  
• rule #4 moderators are always right (that is obvious though)
  

you can find our chart here

Discussion:
Is the rule #1 too restrictive? what is your own thinking about tolerance to others' way to express their personal disagreement? what are the words that you do not tolerate when replying your posts? when do you think a behaviour can be seen as inappropriate?
Is there any rules missing?


Please feel free to post any personal thought about our forum chart

I voted option #2 because there was none that actually fits me.

i think the rules are fine "as a guideline". nothing else. give some margin.
i think mods do stuff the wrong way. you are not there to ban people only (i know you don't "only", but its the most common activity i see you do).
how about re-moving threads, closing threads, cleaning threads, opening threads, launching some activityes, bringing life to this forum with contests, or events, re-arranging forums, sticky posts which are good (some newer posts are excellent, and they SHOULD be stickied, after removing some of the irrelevant stuff from it. stickied and locked.)
and so on and so on. you actually have some nice stuff to do. if its too hard? delegate. find volunteers. on quakenet we find volunteers to do most of the crap. and even on smaller communities (i play fleet command. tiny RTS game (excellent though) and micro community, and we also have a forum of about the same size on a private server), this is possible.
just a thought.

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# rule #1 do not mess with other users

Define: "mess"... honestly, if you are angry and have a problem with me or i made you angry (or anyone else), and then you call me [ insert bad and nasty words here ], i don't really care. i am not 10 years old anymore, and it wont really affect me. sometimes its interesting to see how imaginative people can get with adjectives... haha.
On the other hand, if you repeatedly, even just to say "hello" you will refer to me as [ insert bad and nasty words here ], i might still not be hurt or something, but it would be annoying and just boring and useless (was my case with dilou).
Still, in that case, we could have wordfilters and whatnotsoever. in my case i simply don't read those posts.
We are just a small community. its silly, and sad to ban or lose some of the few members we have. No matter for which reason.
I, for instance would have created a forum called "TRASHTALK" and everytime i see a thread becoming "aggressive", i move the stuff to trashtalk. thats where people can go and post: "you *beep beep beep beep*" and rip out their hearts at saying what they want, start flamewars if they like and whatnot. start controversial topics (id LOVE to launch "why french played gnomes are nothing but *beep* *beep*" ... but i don't because i might get a stick up my *beep*. and i am sure it would be a "hot" topic... lol
if anyone choses to go in there and read the threads, well, then they CHOSE to do so and should not be surprised if "maybe" they find something that will refer to them. so they shouldn't be offended. their choice to go and read.
people sometimes NEED to blow off steam. (remember my "tard"-post? i was so MAD that day... i was seeing truly angry. and you know what. that post HELPED, offensive or not. because when you are angry, you can't say it with flowers. and that day, the person i was replying to was simply saying BS).

So alltogether, i think this rule is either way too open, or enforced too harsh. You banned Trout, yet in the last post where you replied to him, you insult him back. so is insulting back "ok", just because he "did it first"? i don't think so. is it ok because "you are a mod"? nop.
dilou got banned for a few days for saying STFU NOOBS and i felt it was time to tell him FOAD (f**k off and die) and nothing for me. why? because he did it first?
my point is, if you enforce something, enforce it consistently. which is something that DIDNT happen. Deads ban was maybe in your eyes overdue, but at the time he got banned, it was for telling mods that they weren't doing what HE thought they were supposed to. and then again, i think his ban was total BS.
Don't get me wrong. i agree that we should behave to each other. sometimes it gets out of hand. so be it. move it to trashtalk. people who wish to have access, PM a mod and they get access. the rest of the gummy-bears won't see it and continues to jump on the rainbow up and down.
Our community is too small yet too precious to be modded like a big community (and even on a big community, i have to repeat myself, we don't mod like you do). And its impossible that everybody like everybody. and sometimes it gets out of hand. its human. i think we have SO many alternate solutions to this "problem" that seems to affect like 2-3 people who feel seriously "hurt" by it. The current situation and measures are just totally overdone.
we could even do a POLL everytime someone thinks somebody should get a temp / perm ban. and to avoid just creating accounts and voting against someone you dont like, at LEAST 6-10 people need to vote (if less, it means people DONT CARE, then just live with it) and they need to POST their vote, not just click. (or PM an admin if they are too scared to say they think someone should get banned).
Our community is small and we can actually decide stuff as a group.
like in a democracy, you know? wwhere the executive branch (the mods) don't have the TOTAL and ABSOLUTE decision power.
policemen enforce the law, yet they DONT judge. they can take you, and bring you to trial, but its not them who chose your sentence.

anyways, i am having an endless post again. but i am just thinking you ALL need a chillpill, mods should me VOTED for (as in, we all vote for who becomes mod.). [ keep in mind, mod are NOT admins. they just reulate stuff. the forum owners will still be admins... noone loses "true power") and we should all live with each other. for good and for bad.

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# rule #2 do not post irrelevant content

Can't be avoided. happens. thats what keeps a forum going. especially when a small comunity has a forum. we share stuff... about game, life, thoughts, jokes, etc.... like sitting around a beer.
useless point

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# rule #3 try to use English as far as possible

Aggreed. sometimes the eventual thing might slip, but then its a little joke or whatever. but in general, agreed.

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# rule #4 moderators are always right (that is obvious though)

BULLSHIT (please refer to my long paragraph to #1). TOTAL BS!
i am not gonna repeat myself too much.
this sentence is probably the most demented thing i ever read on the net.
and how can someone say "thats obvious though" ????
you should seriously rethink your position. some people simply can't handle power.
Hitler was always right.
(i am using a hyperbola here to make my point. don't take it literally)

Naklin wrote:

We are just a small community. its silly, and sad to ban or lose some of the few members we have.)

Fersure, ban is not fun, but none of the moves in moderation are fun, every time mods act, people may feel a certain violence in it; that's hard but thats just the way it must be. Besides I have always thought that we don't need hundreds of users but we should have users that share a common hobby (here the game); where are we if we allow people to flame each others? that is the only message we tried to transmit in the rule#1.

Although banning another user is not cool and is not why a forum is created for, I personally have no remorse regarding the loss of a guy from a community already small. We would even be only 5 on the forum, if there is one which is a pain in the ass for the others, why should we keep him? because we would be only 4 after?

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people sometimes NEED to blow off steam. (remember my "tard"-post? i was so MAD that day... i was seeing truly angry. and you know what. that post HELPED, offensive or not. because when you are angry, you can't say it with flowers. and that day, the person i was replying to was simply saying BS).

No!! the idea of striking other people because he had a bad day is simply not acceptable! That's even incredible we have to remind it, that's basic education; at work, with family, with wife/girlfriend, inside friends circle or even in the street, allowing oneself that kind of behaviour wont lead anywhere.
If I had a bad day at work, I come back to home and I find my wife to bash in her (I hope the answer is not "nah I wouldnt get wrong with my lady, why would I do that when I can do that for free with virtual people on web forums")

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You banned Trout, yet in the last post where you replied to him, you insult him back. so is insulting back "ok", just because he "did it first"? i don't think so. is it ok because "you are a mod"? nop.

Well you are comparing things you cant compare, I have never made offensive nor degrading to anyone just like that; I still dont know why (and nobody understood, including you as you mentionned in the various pm you sent me and the other admins) but Trout insulted me; that's fine, I can live with that; however, I am as human as the next one, Im not going to let any people insulting me without doing anything.
When I was in France, I have been street mediator for about a year; we are supposed to act politically correct, but when young street rogues lack respect and attack verbally, we are not going to let it go because we are said to be stupidly nice. If they fight we fight.

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dilou got banned for a few days for saying STFU NOOBS and i felt it was time to tell him FOAD (f**k off and die) and nothing for me. why? because he did it first?

You were not banned for at least 3 reasons. You contributed to the forum for much more than Dilou can claim, I have already banned you once and I like not to ban on fiercely the same guy, and finally the most important, you didnt start that, as I stated for my own case above.
If we start the debate on that, we can go further: the law in every country works the same, you are not penalized the same way whether you attack someone or you defend yourself. I believe this is common sense.


[quote]Our community is too small yet too precious to be modded like a big community (and even on a big community, i have to repeat myself, we don't mod like you do). [quote] You got a point.

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policemen enforce the law, yet they DONT judge. they can take you, and bring you to trial, but its not them who chose your sentence.

hehe, why not. Nice one anyway.

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(as in, we all vote for who becomes mod.)

No, thats non sense. Admins vote among themselves to decide who goes mod.

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# rule #2 do not post irrelevant content

Can't be avoided. happens. thats what keeps a forum going. especially when a small comunity has a forum. we share stuff... about game, life, thoughts, jokes, etc.... like sitting around a beer.
useless point

in fact, as stated in the chart, the aim is to avoid debates about politics or religions in which some people may have special affinities and may really fight for it.

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# rule #4 moderators are always right (that is obvious though)

BULLSHIT (please refer to my long paragraph to #1). TOTAL BS!
i am not gonna repeat myself too much.
this sentence is probably the most demented thing i ever read on the net.
and how can someone say "thats obvious though" ????

I bet you undersand that isnt literal meaning, the idea was not to comment about mods actions, what is the main topic on this forum for a couple of weeks now. However, you are right for one thing, unlike we did, the other forums usually dont even mention it, because as we said, it is obvious.

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Hitler was always right.
(i am using a hyperbola here to make my point. don't take it literally)

I admit its nice to have the subtitles.


However, I hear you; maybe we have alternatives to basic moderation; the idea of the trashtalk is a good idea, and the idea of the word filter as well. The idea of a poll for banning when necessary isnt stupid, but it's also much more complicated for a result that might be not that effective; we have to discuss more about it.


PS:

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but i am just thinking you ALL need a chillpill

sometimes, the choice of your words, the ideas you defend, along with the unexpected pm you sent to the admins lead me think you know more that you claim about Trout's hit

possible...
people talk to me, msn, pm, etc...
talking is a good solutin sometimes.

sometimes take a 3rd if 2 people can't / won't don/t want to talk.
still helps resolve the problem.

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if there is one which is a pain in the ass for the others

my point exactly.
i am saying that "WHO" choses someone is a PitA? you? you and 3 other admins? out of how many users?
correct, given a big forum, a huge community, that'd be right. but given our size and our status i'd love to know who. nobody ever asked me for sure. and i am sure nobody asked anyone else.
when dead sometimes flamed me, and i flamed him back, or some others, my point is, we know each other in real life. hell, as long as he doesnt use insult (before i forget, as you asked... you used cunt.. ^^... heheh i like the word. quite harsh though).
where iam getting at when i say a poll for the bans or not or so, is the following: I really want to know who REALLY cares. i don't want a forum which degenerates. christ sake, no. but i dont want to be on a forum, where i have to be afraid to post something because someone might get offended (no offense, but to be honest [REALLY no attack, just my feeling], i don't even know what ticks you off. i just know you get ticked off easily. least thats the impression that gets here).
I wish to help to try to find a solution. But what you said is wrong. when you say that "here at least you say it, other forums don't even say it, but its clear that admins are always right", that is so totally wrong.
We take back bans, we apologize in public, and for SURE we are not always right (i say "we", because even though you might be older than me, i was modding things with 100+ users when you probably still thought a casio pocket calculator had a strong CPU). We are NOT always right.
and i have "rarely" seen actions taken by mods without "explanation".

and funnily these explanations had no disagreeing feedbakc from users. funnily here, the explanation have disagreeing feedback from users (IF an explanation is give. usually after users shout ABUSE!).

[quote]No, thats non sense. Admins vote among themselves to decide who goes mod./[quote]
not nonsense. small and tiny communities VERY OFTEN vote for their mods while still small. its on huge communities where they chose among themselves. Again, a mod only mods a certain part assigned to him. Normal case scenario would be that a person who knows about paladins (i suppose you do) will mod the pala foum + maybe some general parts of forum, IF he prove to be a good n wise mod. thats how admins assign modding rights. mods mod people. they take care of a forum. admin check on mods, so that the forum is being taken care of.
example, you let me mod a paladin forum, and it'd probably be bad. i am not that good in the knowledge about them.

when i talk about blowing off some steam, i don't mean from work or anything. i dont mean to use the forum as your puchingball for your life.
i mean it when others IN the forum are talking (truly) total crap, probabliy risk to spread wrong and erroneous information to others, and they still behave like they got it from god directly and treat you as their dummyboy, then excuse me, nono, no dummy boy. i will show them where their place was. and set a few things right so other users may not believe in those wrong statements. and of those people still insist in whatsoever, thats when it gets steamy, and a discussion starts. yet depending on characters of people, it risks in being a bit more or less "limit" sometimes.
i am not expecting to go over the limit,
but i say it again.... You have no idea about modding.
the paladin thread (which was one of the biggest events with bad feelings), for example, some mod, ANY mod, should have dropped by earlier if it was so bad already, deleted a few words of dilou's posts (it started there. even with ownage it was more a kind of teasing pala's and a class teasing discussion as glob mentionned in there), and post to "please keep it civilaized, blabla, i have deleted a few words beause unfit, blabla, and if can't be, blabla then i will close this thread and bla bla bla bla" if then they don't react after 1-3 tiems, you can announce the harsh decision. feel free.
but thats how you mod? would you have to do it 10 times? in many posts? maybe. is it a mods job? yes. sad? yes, but true.

Political correctness (in the US way of thinking) is crap.
i call a rat a rat. and i won't call a handicapped person "mentally challenged". thats just silly. same goes for the forum.

i never claim to know little about trout's reactions. i know little of his anger. he might got ticked off. but his reactions, i know quite a lot about. as well as others.

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No, thats non sense. Admins vote among themselves to decide who goes mod.

how can you say that? again (this time no hyperbola), the germany of '33-'45 didn't allow comments on the governments actions.


i wish to say so many things, but my posts are always too long, and evn though, i can't REALLY explain my meanings, and being in written, its always open to interpretation, and posts take time to get feedback and its hard to have a true "normal" discussion.
what id DO believe is that we all ahve the same goal in mind. a nice forum where all can be happy. ALL.
i think we even could get to there. truly.
but i think we would need a more dynamic conversation like either a chat or voicechat, with more people involved at the same time (i am happy to host either a chat server or voicechat server) and we all state the things in a civilized manner.
i do think you have some misinterpretation of authority, i do think that even if you worked the streets in france doing whatsoever, your people skills need honing, and i do think that our community needs to honour ALL members, even if 2-4 don't like some of the others.

To be honest, I know the trouble that might possibly come up with a 2.0 ++ release of wow and our foreign clients, i tested the things on private server and on taiwan server, and i found solutions, workarounds and sat down for WEEKS programming loaders, just in case.
now i am sitting here, hope it doesn't happen, because i would have to explain to everybody how / what to do. and IF it happens, i would share.

the more i read about these twisted points of view, the less i feel inclined to publish these things, except to forward them on msn to all the people whom i helped and / or added me on msn.

my point is, you talk about "we decided", "we chose", "we feel that"....

feels like a conspiration theory movie... because WHO is we? who takes part in those discussions?
you? globuline? (only 2 mods i see with a grain of activity). who are all the others.
honestly. if all this thing and the happenings of the past only are a thorn in you two eyes, then forget it and live with it if the rest of the people coming to this forum don't mind.

my point, and my opinion, remains the same. we are so small, that we should be ruled in a communal form. we should be ruled by all and for all.
and if somethign enforced by a few people, then we should alltogether chose whom that might be. i do believe so. i feel like a small group of friends here. and thats what we do.

i agree with you on so many things. yet your ideas of authority frighten me. and so do your returning need to try to apply your point of view of right and wrong on others.

god, i have a lot to say, and i wish i had the time and the strength to give arguments for everything, because i have. but i have not the strength anymore.

to be honest, i give up. because modding won't change, we lost posters (or how much activity DID we have the last weeks?) with good content, no matter the occasional flame and stuff.
so i keep my little strength left to post a few more video tutorials, reply to the PMs of people having questions or needing help or anything, and that'd be about it, i think.
i will keep posting how i see it fit. and if a user doesn't like it, it won't make a difference, and if a mod doesn't like it, i might get banned. because THAT (sadly) is the feeling we all got. when i say "we", its about 90% of the active users in non-violet colored names, that have been active over the past 8 weeks at least.
we ALL talk on msn. a LOT. and when you say you think i know more about people's thoughts and "why"s? you are right.
maybe thats why i keep repeating the same things over and over.

now stop being my father on a forum. i wanna find a solution to all of this to co-habitate happily here. but i am not going to be lectured about modding by you. you (and that is my opinion) have honorable goals for all of this, good intentions and you seem generous and wish to be just. but you have no idea whatsoever how to mod communities of different scales.

PS: seeing how this is one of the first times we talk civilized about all this, and seeing how many people actually try to help, give an opinion or find a solution, you can judge by yourself how many people actually "care".

at least thats what i think.

Naklin wrote:

(no offense, but to be honest [REALLY no attack, just my feeling], i don't even know what ticks you off. i just know you get ticked off easily. least thats the impression that gets here).

interresting.. Id be inclined to say im not that easily upset, Id even say Im less inclined to defend myself than you, but that may be my really personal feeling and is not really the point here.

That reminds me I have asked you a question: recently Trout fired on me, with an unknown motivation, then it evolved into a bunch of insults; a few people critisized my reaction (but nobody said anything to Trout's one), what I have heard; I can make mistake and admit it, but I asked you (other people may give their own point of view as well) how you would have reacted to Trout's last post. Which I believe I didnt deserve. I mean it, its an true question (yet I think you cant answer it consistently, because I believe you would have the same reaction: ban and reply to the community; how could it have been else?).
(I will add to your previous remark that I said only one "cunt" in response of how many insults from him..)

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(i say "we", because even though you might be older than me, i was modding things with 100+ users when you probably still thought a casio pocket calculator had a strong CPU)

rah, these preconceived ideas of yours are something that I cant understand.
Remember when I was a paladin only 40 and I posted here to give my personal point of view, you took my level as granted that I had no experience of lvl 60 life; which I had in France for 3 characters (I still hate game after lvl 60)

Ok, since its not the first time you doubt about it, lets clear about my background once for all, Ive been to technician school (IUT GEII) then joined an engineer school which I left for personal reasons. I used to code a little (nothing practical, only for some easy maths: matrices reversing, periodical functions drawing, etc..), did also some electronics cards as I had the stuff to do it: radio, I/O card for PC, etc... was quite nasty though, I had much cleaner results at school and at work (first work in a company that supply urban transportations companies with electronic stuff, except a few automate coding, that was mainly electronic design and making).

I may not have the same experience as you in webhosting (I was webmaster for only 2 websites, each of them was family size, even smaller than this one, yet much more dynamic), and more than that Im a completly different spirit now, but Im not completly unware of basic stuff
I say it free, please take it as it comes, that kind of statement doesnt serve you (just my advice, you may throw it immediately to the thrash)

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No, thats non sense. Admins vote among themselves to decide who goes mod.

not nonsense. small and tiny communities VERY OFTEN vote for their mods while still small.

When everybody knows everybody in a private circle, why not.
But here anybody may register in 2minutes and add his vote to the poll. Id say its even possible to register a couple of accounts and vote with which each of them. We need organise that but why not.

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No, thats non sense. Admins vote among themselves to decide who goes mod.

how can you say that? again (this time no hyperbola), the germany of '33-'45 didn't allow comments on the governments actions.

I prefer your first reply to my quote

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now stop being my father on a forum.

that isnt my purpose and I apologize if you ever felt like it



Finally I realise you are very lyrical in your posts, thats nice, I like the idea

Krokro clearly is highly fed but lowly taught.

He has the years to prove his age but not the wisdom, rationale or tolerance.

His technical proficiency proves nothing at his ability to mod a forum, being a mod in a forum is more or less like a politician, irresponsible and reckless politicians like Bush will made thousands of soldiers dies for oil.

Power hungry politicians like Hitler made billions die and the ones that survived suffered for years to come.

Being a mod much like being a politician requires more than knowledge and intellect, they required compassion and tolerance. But most importantly they required WISDOM to make judgment.

It is my sincere opinion for the greater good of this forum and community that krokro resign as mod from this forum and let the community vote for a mod as naklin suggested.

agree with you on many things.
1am now, tomorrow important department meeting. so, for once, a shorter post...

as i said, agree on most. i am happy bout that.

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When everybody knows everybody in a private circle, why not.
But here anybody may register in 2minutes and add his vote to the poll. Id say its even possible to register a couple of accounts and vote with which each of them. We need organise that but why not.

thats why i say not "really" vote by poll, but by post. OPEN votes. people POST whom they vote for. end of story. you only count votes of people who are ACTIVE in the forum or whom are known to the users. double accounts won't count, and one time visitors or just 5 timers won't count either. ^^
solution done. wasn't hard.

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I prefer your first reply to my quote

hihihihihihihihihi (no other words... you made me smile and laugh, and probably go to bed happy now... hihihi)

kisses & hugs to everyone, but little Quintin (my real name ^^ ) needs some sleep tonite...

PS: didn't attack your techincal knowledge with the casio thingie... hehe. was just that because of all this, i have talked to all my other mod friends i still know and i just either don't fully understand our problem here (it might be a moo point) or its simply that people modded different things for different times. dunno..
sleep time.

Jesus:
stop using a guest account.
don't compare human live's fate with this forum
don't add oil to the flames, we are trying to find a solution in this thread, not bashing at each other (again......sooooooooo useless in this case)

we are getting there actually, even without new "bash the mod" posts. i think we all now know about it. now we need to get to understanding.
i mean, if you read this thread, krokro and me just had a tiny mini little "peaceful" micro-flame discussion (at some points)... haha

and noone died. he is human. oh surprise. he even has a sense of humour (still not sure...hahaha).
but most importantly, we are willing ot talk. you are accusing again. the time to point with fingers at people is over. it doesn't help. its not important anymore who started or whose fault it was for whatever.
what matters is what we will do in future and how we cohabitate in here. there will be a way. i am sure of it. so lets just find how.
because in about 20 days TBC will hit us. and it will be WAY more active again.
and i would be HAPPY if by then aLL users are back and we ALL feel confortable and satisfied.

night

Jesus is a Psycho...

Naklin just has way way too mauch time on his hands....

yes, i have too much "taim" at hand.... rofl.
dinner again?
this time i pay or we share, this time we go out of pudong !!!!!
and this time we have to call pouet or he gets mad at me again...
hehehe.
hugs to all

PS: about my "long posts" ..... i don't use that much time. i actually just type freakishly fast (thats where the typos come in).
anyone chatting with me on msn or in-game should know that by now. ^^

That good old Jesus... that has been a long time, I thought you died 2000 years ago...

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being a mod in a forum is more or less like [...] like Bush will made thousands of soldiers dies for oil.

but oil is important, I wouldnt eat salad without it...

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Being a mod much like being a politician requires more than knowledge and intellect, they required compassion and tolerance.

being a politician never required compassion or tolerance, they even betray their own political friends (age of the poster: around 20 or less)



more seriously..

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It is my sincere opinion for the greater good of this forum and community that krokro resign as mod from this forum

in your dreams...
plus im not moderator but admin

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and let the community vote for a mod as naklin suggested

not either, everyone can express their own ideas but admins/mods are the ones to choose the new mods.

An informal vote has been cast recently and we are waiting for the answer of the new mod. At least 2 other people are considered for it as well, we need more mods, we are still discussing about that.


That childish way... I would definitively vote for Ownage style, and I would double check the IP + WhoIs if I was not that lazy... I knew you wouldnt be that strong to follow what you choose for yourself...
how sad...
especially when we all know that you are not banned from this forum at all, but delete your account on your own, preventing from communicating with other users, only because you cant bear the 5 days you have been forced away...

lol ... this must hurt ...
ai....
i am gonna finish watch the life of brian (again)_ and then head out. no WoW for me tonight. feels kind of good.... life

hope you all having a good time. i am having a blast.
i am sure krokro will have an answer for his new mods within the next 24 hours, considering that the person might have forgotten to reply, yet when he / she will read this post, he / she will remember to reply to him

see you all soon.
tomorrow no office for me. during daytime will be available to level anyone who needs levelling and is above level 48.
and i'll add 2 more video tutorial posts, +2 more (total of 4 videos) having a co-star from the forum, the next skilled mage to come and soon to be 60, MR. Scampers. (applause for him.)

c ya all

...give me that movie! that's an order!

I've been looking for it everywhere...damn life is unfair...

I blame the mod!

there's no pie option

taim: get your movie over here if you defeat me at RAYMAN'S RAVING RABBITS, it's yours. ^^

dead: # some more pie

i pwned you at the cow throwing if i remeber correctly but you must have learned a lot since our last WII session

I am gonna be the next mod, now, maggots! kiss my boots ! yo mofoes!

you need to be adult to mod luna soz